S3, E21: Povaha našich miest s Dr. Nadinou Galle, 4. časť

Digitálne generovaný prepis (môže obsahovať chyby)

Good morning or good afternoon, depending on what time of the day you’re listening to this. This is Jackie de Burca for Constructive Voices, and I am in my final recording with the wonderful author. And she has many other and many other hats that she wears as well. Nadine Galle, who has written this really amazing book which is accessible to all people. And we are now on our final chat, which is really honing in on how nature can affect our health positively.

A ideme do stratégií týkajúcich sa expozície prírody a osvedčených postupov a tak ďalej. Nadina, pre tých, ktorí nepočúvali ostatné epizódy, týmto ľuďom očividne dáme malú facku a povieme, vráťte sa a vypočujte si prvú epizódu, pretože Nadina má úžasný úvod o celej svojej práci. Ale pre tých, z nejakého dôvodu, ak počúvajú iba túto epizódu, môžete sa, prosím, v krátkosti predstaviť?

[00:01:11] Dr Nadina Galle: Určite. A ďakujem, Jackie, že si ma opäť mal. A ahojte všetci. Volám sa doktorka Nadina Galleová. Som holandský kanadský ekologický inžinier. Som prieskumník National Geographic 2024 a naposledy som autorom knihy Nature of Our Cities. Ako môžeme využiť silu prírodného sveta na prežitie na meniacej sa planéte.

[00:01:33] Jackie De Burca: Výborne. Takže skočíme rovno do toho. Prečo je príroda dôležitá pre ľudské zdravie? Nadina, viem, že je to veľká otázka, ale pobav ma a odpovedz mi, prosím, čo najlepšie.

[00:01:44] Dr Nadina Galle: Yeah, it is indeed a big question. And I think I’ll start with one of the benefits that I think most people can relate to. And that is just the benefit on our mental health. Right. Exposure to green spaces significantly can reduce stress, anxiety, depression. Nature has this really calming and restorative effect, which I think can improve or not. I think research shows us can improve our mood and our cognitive function, and I think in general just helps people feel more relaxed and focused. Mental health is one thing. There’s also our physical health. I say nature really promotes physical activity, whether that be walking or cycling or even just playing outdoors. Relax, relaxing outdoors, they say. Research has shown us that regular access to parks and green spices, you know, reduces risks of things like chronic disease, obesity, cardiovascular disease, diabetes.

To samo o sebe bolo naozaj, naozaj dôležité.

But there’s also these other things that we may not necessarily think about or see, and those are things like air quality. Having trees and plants can filter pollutants, improve air quality, and thereby also improving our respiratory issues. And overall that comes with that. It regulates temperatures, so it keeps Our cities cool in the summertime. It also keeps our cities warm in the wintertime, which is kind of interesting. It acts as a buffer both ways.

Je tam veľká časť sociálneho prepojenia, ktoré podľa mňa ide ruka v ruke s duševným zdravím. Ale myšlienka, že zelené plochy a parky v skutočnosti ponúkajú priestory pre komunitnú interakciu, čo je obzvlášť dôležité v dnešnej dobe, v ktorej sa stretávame s veľkou sociálnou izoláciou a osamelosťou vyplývajúcou z pandémie, to bola obrovská vec. A v dobe, kedy čoraz menej ľudí chodí do kostolov alebo na miesta viery, sú prírodné oblasti a zelené parky skutočne jednou z mála oblastí, ktoré máme na to, aby sme mali tieto spoločné priestory, kde sa môžeme stretávať a podporovať komunitné interakcie.

And I would say lastly, just to kind of circle back to that first point is, yes, it’s important for mental health. But even bigger than that, I think nature and green spaces in our cities, they offer this restorative escape from the noise and chaos and pressures of urban life. And that can be a lot of physical pressures, right? Traffic, big buildings, a lot of asphalt, loud noises. But it can also be the stress of it, right? Busy jobs, busy agendas, you know, stressed out parents and kids, and over scheduled agendas, you know, all of these things without us really realizing at times, can have a huge impact on us. And being in nature, even if that just means taking part of your commute through a green corridor, cycling through a tree lined street, or you know, taking your lunch break in a park, all of those things can have massive impacts on our health. And it feels sometimes tough to kind of, you know, I could go into the specifics of each of these and give you stats and figures about why each of it helps from, you know, helping children not develop myopia, from making sure we have enough vitamin D, from making sure we get enough physical activity. But it almost feels kind of reductionistic to hone down the benefits of nature in this kind of really scientific lens. Because ultimately I believe we came from nature, we evolved in nature. It’s part of what makes us human. And I think anyone can relate to this idea that if you’re spending the majority of your day inside, you just did not feel well, versus when you spend more time outdoors and in nature, you automatically feel better. And I think that’s something that everyone can relate to. And ultimately, I believe we are hardwired to love nature and want to be in nature.

[00:05:38] Jackie De Burca: Z celého srdca s vami súhlasím.

A myslím si, že viete, jedna z vecí, o ktorých je dôležité, aby sme sa rozprávali, je, že ste spomenuli deti v prírode, dobre, len pre ich fyzické, fyzické dobro, aby ste sa vyhli chorobám z nedostatku. vitamínu D a pod. Ale samozrejme, v určitom bode svojej knihy spomínaš, že v čase písania článku si bola tehotná s Lucou. A samozrejme, viete, dotýkajú sa, predpokladám, vecí, o ktorých veľa, určite nielen ženy, mužov tiež premýšľa. Privediem dieťa na tento svet také, aké je? Viete, toto sú otázky, ktoré zjavne niektorí ľudia majú. A viete, pravdepodobne na to existuje niekoľko opodstatnených dôvodov. Predstavujem si, že to bol pre vás celkom náročný proces. Adina.

[00:06:28] Dr Nadina Galle: Yeah, it’s really tough. It’s a conversation that I hear a lot around me. This very dark fear and lack of optimism for the future, this fear of climate, of climate change, of the effects of it, and this general feeling of this is not a world that I want to bring children into. And that is just. I mean, I get emotional just thinking about that because I believe we’re put on this earth to bring more life onto this earth. And I believe that is our purpose at the end of the day. And no matter what form that takes, obviously not everybody has to have their own children if that’s not something that they desire. But, you know, bringing in children into the world, whether that be nieces or nephews or stepchildren or adopted children, is such a way that we contribute also to the future of our planet, to the future of the world that we will leave behind for those children. And it’s such, it’s so heartbreaking to me that there are so many people in the world that feel that that is no longer something worth doing. Because I feel like when you, when you, when you decide that, it also means that you’ve given up on your own life in some, in some, in some way or another. And I think that the true to test of a beautiful society is those that plant trees and plant natural areas knowing that they will never sit under the shade of that tree. In fact, that’s, that’s an old proverb that I quote in the book as well.

Verím, že pobyt v prírode, a nie len sústredenie sa na záhubu a temnotu klimatických zmien, verím, že sústredenie sa na prírodu v skutočnosti poskytuje obrovský pocit hojnosti, pocit, že je vždy viac a že je tu veľa pre každého a že je toho viac. odkiaľ to prišlo, je toho viac, čo môžeme vytvoriť. A milujem premýšľať skôr o pocite hojnosti ako o pocite strachu. A hanba a ukazovanie prstom na ľudí, ktorí robia veci nesprávnym spôsobom.

I really enjoy, you know, writing and working at this cusp of urban nature because I believe that is the nature that we have in our daily lives that’s so critical, but it’s also operating from this place of abundance rather than this feeling of. Of shame and guilt.

[00:08:44] Jackie De Burca: Áno, myslím si, že je to naozaj vynikajúce. A ďalšie slovo, ktoré mi príde na myseľ v súvislosti s ľuďmi a prírodou, viete, deti, ktoré ich učitelia ukazujú, viete, že to môžu byť ich učitelia v škole, môžu to byť ich učitelia v škole. rodina a, viete, priatelia, susedia, ako môžeme spolupracovať s prírodou. Spolupráca je slovo, ktoré vám napadne, pretože v poslednej epizóde ste uviedli niekoľko úžasných príkladov svojej knihy, prípadové štúdie o slimákoch a, viete, vranách a tak ďalej.

Nature itself is collaborating with itself. A species is changing its color because it needs to. A species is changing its calls because it also needs to, because of the urban environment that it’s living in. So therefore, if humans are collaborating with nature, all of what you see because of your positive work is entirely possible. And therefore, you know, not that there’s no need for doom and gloom, but really, that can be quashed and, you know, put down further by just collaborating with nature and encouraging that quickly.

[00:09:58] Dr Nadina Galle: Áno, áno. A myslím, že máme. Máme.

Stratili sme to z dohľadu. Zabudli sme na fakt, že príroda je naším najväčším spolupracovníkom. Stratili sme zo zreteľa skutočnosť, že príroda, myslím, sme len niektoré vymenovali na začiatku tejto epizódy, ale príroda hrá úlohu v každom aspekte nášho života. Myslím, že by si mohol úprimne argumentovať. A či už je to v zdrojoch, ktoré máme my. Že si musíme vybudovať naše domovy and build our offices, whether that’s in their air quality that we breathe and are reliant on every day, the quality of our water, the places that we go to recreate our food systems are entirely based on a healthy balance in our ecosystems with nature. So there’s. There’s so many different linkages. And ultimately, I think reestablishing that connection with nature is so critical to creating ultimately happy and healthy humans that live on a happy and healthy planet.

[00:10:56] Jackie De Burca: 100%. 100% súhlasím s tebou, Nadina. Takže prejdite na ekoterapiu, ktorá je tiež, viete, povedané. Hovorilo sa o tom aj s inými menami. Čo to vlastne je a pod akými ďalšími menami to môžeme poznať?

[00:11:12] Dr Nadina Galle: Áno, myslím si, že niektoré z najbežnejších sú pravdepodobne veci ako lesná terapia. Lesné kúpanie je ďalšie. Je ďalší bežný, ktorý pochádza z japonského slova shinrin yoku, čo doslova znamená kúpať sa v lese.

And Japan really was at the forefront of a lot of this because they saw in, you know, rapid industrial revolution, you know, rapid urbanization, a lot of sedentary jobs, which was quite, you know, different to what Japan had been used to previously. They saw massive spikes in mental health disorders and things like stress and anxiety, things that, you know, we can all relate to. And they saw huge benefits of people being out in nature. And of course, you know, the Japanese elders were like, yeah, well, of course, this is where we came from. Of course you’re going to feel better and more restorative when you’re there. But the government really saw huge potential in that and actually invested large amounts of money to create, you know, to one certify, you know, forest bathing guides to take, you know, even the most, like, staunchest city slickers out into nature, into forests and help them kind of reconnect with the natural earth to hopefully help with some of the, whether it be more severe mental health disorders or just kind of a general sense of malaise that we were talking about just earlier.

A investovali veľa vládnych peňazí, kým nevyškolili tých chlapov, ale tiež vytvorili parky naboso, kde ľudia, môžete doslova mlieť, bosí v lese, tieto krásne turistické chodníky, ktoré ste mohli sledovať, pretože to videli, viete , trávenie času v lesoch, znižuje hladinu kortizolu, znižuje úzkosť. Existujú dokonca štúdie, ktoré ukazujú, že v skutočnosti zvyšuje niečo, čo sa nazýva prirodzené zabíjačské bunky, ktoré sú v našom tele skutočne dôležité na boj s vecami, ako je rakovina. Viete, máme nielen zmeny nálady, ale aj fyziologické zmeny, ktoré sa nám dejú, keď sme blízko stromov v lesoch. Je, je.

[00:13:15] Jackie De Burca: Je to naozaj niečo, čo je naozaj niečo, čo je evidentne prirodzené zabíjač buniek. Viete, myslím si, že to samo o sebe stačí.

Je to dosť informácií na to, aby som sa obrátil, ak som sa už neobrátil. To je dosť, nie? Viete, keď sa zamyslíte nad všetkými tými hroznými chorobami, ktorým by ste mohli potenciálne, viete, zabrániť tým, že budete mať viac prirodzených zabíjačských buniek, je to úžasné.

Nadina, povedz nám o tých sprievodcoch lesnej terapie, ktorí boli vyškolení v Chico State.

[00:13:49] Dr Nadina Galle: Yeah, so that was a really interesting case study because Chico State or California University is also commonly known. It sits in Chico county, and Chico is right around the corner from Paradise. So where one of the most devastating wildfires happened in US history, and it sits smack Dab in the middle of wildfire County, a country. And this is been really, really.

I mean, for lack of a better word, interesting. Because what you have there is, you have this community, these huge populations of people that have been absolutely traumatized by what they’ve had to deal with. Their wildfires that have swept through their land, their property, their homes, and in the worst cases, their loved ones. And it has just been so catastrophic and so traumatizing. Many of these, they relate to, actually wild wildfire survivors. They have rates of PTSD in the same levels that you might expect from veterans coming home from war. You know, this is extremely traumatizing. And the thing that’s so odd is that the thing that caused this wildfire, nature itself, right? Maybe the spark wasn’t caused by nature, but a lot of the buildup of the vegetation, you know, cause its ferocity, how catastrophic it became, that. That nature itself, the kind of the. The instigator of this wildfire, can hopefully also be an area for healing for these people as well. And I think that’s. That’s. That’s what. What made this. These. The training of ecotherapy guides at Chico State so interesting. And I got the opportunity to speak to one of them called Blake Ellis. And she, together with 14 other local mental health professionals, were trained to become certified ecotherapy guides. And the goal was really to then provide comfort to these communities that were impacted by wildfires. And when Blake was telling me about one of these sessions, she was saying that what was so interesting is that for the first time, many of them were able to see trees and these downed trees and the debris that was left, not as this reminder and symbol of death and decay, but actually as opportunity and hope for the future. And I think that’s something that’s this beautiful parallel that hopefully we can relate back to other fascinating facets of our life as well. And one of the things that Blake said that really stuck with me is that, you know, she keeps. She kept saying when she was telling me about these things is, you know, I am. I am simply a guide. It is the forest that is the therapist. And that is, I think, something that is so central to ecotherapy and forest therapy is seeing the forest as the therapist that it is, and that these individuals that are these certified guides, they are the facilitators that can help take you through. And there’s many different exercises. You know, sometimes it’s simply sitting and meditating in a forest environment. Sometimes it is literally hugging a tree and coming into contact with some of these. You know physiological changes that can happen to your body. Sometimes it’s taking a silent walk, sometimes it’s actually just having your therapy session, but you’re walking through the forest as you’re doing it. So there’s many different ways that forest bathing and forest therapy can take place, but the goal is that this venue, the forest, really provides the mechanisms for a lot of this healing.

[00:17:16] Jackie De Burca: Milujem skutočnosť, ako hovoríš, Nadina, že terapeutom je les. A myslím si, že to je dôležité, viete, nielen pre tých, ktorí na terapiu išli, ale aj v zmysle akejkoľvek terapie vôbec. Viete, ešte raz, je to ľudské ego, že je to ako, ó, terapeut robí pre mňa alebo pre kohokoľvek to, to a to iné. Ale v skutočnosti je terapeut na konci dňa len ako vedenie, viete, je to nástroj. Táto osoba je nástrojom na pomoc pri liečení situácie. A preto, vidieť les ako terapeut, si myslím, že samo o sebe je len liečivé, myslím.

[00:17:54] Dr Nadina Galle: Yeah. And I think we have to. It’s also important to remind the listeners here, is that we talk about forest therapy, we talk about ecotherapy, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be in a forest. Of course, that’s better. But Blake also loved to tell me this story about her teacher who taught her to be a guide. Loves to tell this story that he actually did a successful session, forced guide therapy session, in the middle of a parking lot under the shade of a single tree. So it is very possible to do this with a single tree, even in the middle of a parking lot, you can have this connection to nature. And I think, again, kind of reinstating why urban nature is so important and why we have to be careful not to write off urban nature as not quote, unquote, real nature or effective nature for these kinds of things. A lot of these sessions can take part in parking lots with single trees, if you’re really forced to. But otherwise, backyards, urban parks, manicured gardens, you know, there, as long as it’s some kind of natural setting, you can actually start to feel a lot of these benefits, you know, and if you have access to a beautiful old growth forest, of course host your session there. But even if that’s not possible, you can still feel the same kind of sense of grounding that other places are able to offer.

[00:19:12] Jackie De Burca: Takže áno, myslím si, že je to samozrejme skvelá rada. Viete, ak sa len pozeráme, vytiahnite slovo les, iba príroda je terapeutom. A všade, kde nájdeme ten kúsok prírody, viete. Ak je to len trochu, je to tiež v poriadku. Takže si myslím, že je to skvelá rada.

Máte niekoľko skutočne zaujímavých prípadových štúdií, ktoré ste uviedli v tejto časti knihy. Môžeš nám niektoré z nich porozprávať, Nadina?

[00:19:40] Dr Nadina Galle: Áno, existujú.

Je ich pomerne veľa. A jedna z mojich obľúbených je myšlienka, že stromy s nami môžu skutočne hovoriť prostredníctvom tohto špecifického druhu technológie nazývanej geolokovaný zvuk.

It was this project by theatre director Puk van Dijk in the north of Amsterdam. Amsterdam north is this rapidly developing neighborhood which I think a lot of post industrial cities can relate to. It’s an area that is really dealing with, you know, rampant changes, gentrification, drug use, pushing out certain demographics, pushing in a new demographic, dealing with, sadly, a lot of deforestation to make way for a lot of this development. And Buch van Dyck moved to this neighborhood after she had a very nomadic childhood, lived all over the world. And when she had a child of her own, she wanted more stability. And she looked for stability at her tree neighbors, the ginkgos, the ashes, the oaks, the maples that she shared her new neighborhood with. She was really inspired by them and she wanted to understand her neighbors more. So she started to interview some of her human neighbors and she started see a lot of parallels, right? She would talk to a new neighbor who was a retired bodybuilder, and he was complaining about the fact that this highway that had been expanded was causing his asthma to get worse and worse. And he was dealing with a lot of issues. And she was wondering, she was like, I wonder if the trees that are planted next, that highway are dealing with similar issues. She talked to another neighbor who complained how lonely she was, especially during the pandemic and afterwards too, that she missed these talks with a lot of her neighbors after they had passed away. And she saw this tree in the middle of a square that was all by itself. And she was like, I wonder if that tree deals with loneliness in the same way as humans might be able to relate to. Long story short, she created this immersive audio tour of these six talking trees. She called it the Giants of North. And she was able to use a lot of these interviews that she had done with human neighbors and translate their stories to these trees. And she actually used local voice actors, actors that were from Amsterdam north, to put on the create these characters and put on these voices for these trees. And it didn’t work like a typical audio tour where you would have to scan a QR code every time you’re at a new stop, you were just able to press play, go on this walk. And the gps, your GPS location would actually guide you either to the right or either to the left based on where you were. And if you were close enough to one of the trees, it would actually start talking to you. And this just meant for such an immersive experience because, for example, in this tree that was dealing with a lot of pollution, it actually started coughing before you could even see it. You would start to hear this coughing, you would turn the corner and there was the tree right next to the road, dealing with these issues. And I just thought it was such a fantastic example to, in a really creative way, show urbanites the plight of city trees and what they’re dealing with and at the same time provide people that, yeah, that normally wouldn’t have that kind of. That interaction, that connection with trees to be able to relate to them more. And I think that’s something so critical that we’ve touched on in the past. The more you’re able to understand and relate to something, the more you’re able to care for it and ultimately protect it as well.

A ako píšem v knihe, táto prehliadka bola taká úspešná, že pracujú na tom, aby sa stala trvalou inštaláciou. A v skutočnosti hlavný urbanista Amsterdamu považoval zvukové turné Giants of North za povinné počúvanie pre každého v jeho oddelení.

[00:23:30] Jackie De Burca: Je to taký úžasný príbeh a ja som ešte nebol. Nebol som v Amsterdame strašne dlho, ale naozaj ma to núti premýšľať, že by som sa mal určite vrátiť do Amsterdamu, len aby som počul hovoriť stromy.

[00:23:42] Dr Nadina Galle: Unfortunately, the trees only speak Dutch at the moment, so you’ll have to a little bit. But I would love. I said that book right away. I was like, you need to get a translated version of this because this would be. It’s also just like, I’ve talked to interpreters so people that their work, you know, whether they work for national parks or museum, their work is to translate, you know, disseminate knowledge and information to the general public. Could be history, it could be natural history, all kinds of different things. I was like, this is such a beautiful way to do interpretation. Like, it’s so replicable. Like, I would love to see something like this in every city around the world, like, even just as a tourist attraction. I think it’s such a cool idea.

[00:24:23] Jackie De Burca: I think it’s a really cool idea. I mean, I think. Thinking out loud, really, Nadina, I think that those trees, like my birth city of Dublin, you know, those trees that are by the canal in Dublin. Surely they can tell not only their own experience of the changing, you know, the changing sort of sights and scenes and vibes of Dublin over the last, you know, couple of decades or whatever. So they could probably express like, their own, you know, I’m relatable as a tree, but also give, like, visitors a little bit of the history of that area at the same time.

[00:24:56] Dr Nadina Galle: Oh, áno. Oh, áno. A to je vlastne popisný text obrov severu skutočne začína, verím, že začína tým, čo naši obri videli. Pretože ak si predstavíte tieto staršie stromy a potom sa rozprávajú o, viete, hašterivom páre, zrážke medzi Vespou a bicyklom o tretej ráno, viete, dieťa, ktoré naň lezie, viete, všetky tieto rôzne veci, ktoré históriu. Chcem tým povedať, že ak budeme mať šťastie, máme v našich mestách stromy, ktoré sú, viete, stotníky, staršie ako 150 200 rokov. Myslím, že tieto stromy tam boli predtým, ako sme sa narodili a dúfam, že tam budeme dlho potom, čo budeme preč.

[00:25:34] Jackie De Burca: Dúfajme. Dúfajme. Ale je to taký fantastický koncept a dúfajme, že, ako hovoríte, sa ešte viac rozšíri, viete, pretože je úplne skvelý.

Heading to Melbourne, Australia, there’s also an email, a tree campaign. How does that work?

[00:25:50] Dr Nadina Galle: Yeah, speaking of projects that are so easily replicable in cities around the world, there is a campaign called the Email the Tree Campaign, but it didn’t. It didn’t start quite like what it sounds. Essentially, it started. It all started with Yvonne Lynch. She was the head of the Urban Forester and Urban Forestry and Urban Ecology team for the City of Melbourne. And what she was struggling with is that every day she would get emails, she would get phone calls, she’d get stopped in the street, her colleagues would get stopped in the street to get to answer questions about trees in people’s neighborhoods. Right, like this.

Tento strom vyzerá choro. Kedy sa na to ideš pozrieť? Kedy bude tento strom vyrúbaný? Kedy sa pozriete na škody na tomto strome? Tento, viete, elektrický kábel prichádza veľmi blízko k vetvám tohto stromu. Všetky tieto, viete, otázky, dokonca by ste ich mohli nazvať sťažnosťami, občas prichádzali nesprávne. A prvá, viete, otázka, na ktorú by ste vždy museli odpovedať, bola, aký je to strom? A potom by nasledovala táto neuveriteľne frustrujúca konverzácia, no, je to oproti tejto adrese, ale to nie je ten strom, je to tento strom. Viete, je to občan. Možno nepoznajú druh stromu. Takže by sa to snažili opísať. Viete, je to tá s kmeňom a listami a, viete, bola to veľmi frustrujúca, veľmi frustrujúca situácia pre Yvonne a jej tím.

Takže urobila pilotný program na získanie ID čísla pre každý jednotlivý strom, ktoré už mali. Ale pripojte to ID číslo. Na e-mailovú adresu, teda ID číslo, mal teraz každý jednotlivý strom individuálnu e-mailovú adresu. Aby bolo možné toto identifikačné číslo nájsť na mape. Mohli by ste priblížiť, mohli ste nájsť strom a potom by ste mohli okamžite vidieť e-mailovú adresu a mohli by ste poslať svoju otázku o tomto konkrétnom strome e-mailom na túto konkrétnu e-mailovú adresu. A to fungovalo celkom dobre ako manažérsky nástroj, kým si Yvonne nezačala všimnúť niečo celkom zvláštne, a to, že jej do schránky nedostávali sťažnosti a otázky týkajúce sa údržby stromov, ale skôr dostávala zaľúbené listy stromom.

Dostávali rôzne druhy náklonnosti. Vieš, veci hovoria ako: Milá 10087898, vždy som sa z okna pozeral na tvoje konáre a tvoje listy. Sedím v tvojom tieni. Vieš, poskytol si mi útechu v časoch skutočného boja v mojom živote. Vedzte, naozaj osobné, hlboké, viete, vyznania dokonca aj o sile a úteche, ktorú dostali z týchto stromov.

Viete, niektorí boli svojrázni a zábavní, viete, hovorili, že, viete, boli zamilovaní do tohto stromu, ale, viete, zamilovali sa do tohto iného stromu. A považuje sa to za cudzoložstvo stromu? Vieš, bolo. Prešlo to cez celú cestu. A v určitom bode, viete, spočiatku odpovedali, pretože si mysleli, že je to naozaj vtipné, a odpovedali, ako keby boli strom. Yvonne a jej tím. Ale v určitom momente sa to jednoducho vymklo spod kontroly, pretože sa to stalo virálnym nielen v Melbourne, ale potom sa to stalo virálnym v Austrálii a potom sa to stalo virálnym po celom svete. Takže potom tu boli tieto e-mailové adresy zriadené z iných stromov v mestách po celom svete, ktoré posielali e-maily stromom v Melbourne, e-maily svojim bratrancom a ich priateľom po celom svete. A je to jednoducho, úplne, úplne šialené. A bolo to len také. Napriek, viete, virálnosti, ktorú mal, bol to len taký krásny príklad, že, viete, je tu, verím, vnútorná láska a náklonnosť k stromom, s ktorými zdieľame naše mestá.

Ale nikdy to nemalo spôsob, ako to vyjsť, až doteraz. A čo sa mi na ňom naozaj páči, je, že je tak replikovateľné a bolo by to akurát. Je to taký krásny spôsob, ako ukázať náklonnosť a lásku, ktorá existuje k stromom. A stále hovorím Yvonne, bola som taká, že musíš, vieš, urobiť to najlepšie, a vydať to v knihe s krásnymi fotografiami týchto rôznych stromov a týchto milostných listov. Pretože je to proste taký krásny príbeh.

[00:29:47] Jackie De Burca: Je to naozaj krásny príbeh. Je to naozaj tak. Teraz prechádzame k technológii, ktorú používa Biely dom v USA a tiež veľké neziskové organizácie zaoberajúce sa výsadbou stromov na riešenie zdravotných rozdielov. Je známy ako Nature Scores. Môžeš nám to porozprávať, Nadina?

[00:30:06] Dr Nadina Galle: Absolutely, yeah. So Nature Score is very different to something that, you know, professionals have done in the past, municipalities have done in the past, which is doing an assessment of the greenery that you have in a city. So in the past this was done by viewing something called the NDVI or the Normalized Difference Vegetation Index. And that worked really well, but it worked really well for doing one thing which was mapping the greenery in a city. But we know now that the health, that the health benefits that we get from nature is not just greenery. In fact, it also comes in the form of water bodies, of beaches, of open fields, of forests. You know, all these different natural elements play a role in our, in our health. And in this NDVI analysis, things like sand and rock and water actually get a score of zero because they’re not green. And we know now from research that these areas do provide health benefits. So Nature Score was developed as an alternative to that. It was developed by a startup in Oregon called NatureQuant. And you can kind of sense it in the name. Their mission is to quantify nature. And the reason why they want to do that is because they wholeheartedly believe that if we can give nature a number, we’re going to be better off trying to get the investment for it and find and really fight for its rightful place, especially in urban environments. So Nature Score, essentially what it does is you can pick any static address anywhere in Canada and the U.S. and they’re working on Europe at the moment, and you can get your Nature Score. So basically that takes, it takes a radius of 500 meters from around your house. That is the distance that we know from research that the nature is going to have an impact on the health of you living in that specific address at that place. And it gives you a score. You know, 100 is, you know, you’re, you’re in the middle of a forest, you know, that is, that is, you’re in a nature rich environment. 80 to 100, you know, 60, 60 to 80 is something called nature adequate. And Then it goes into nature, I don’t know the medium one. And then it goes into your habit, nature deficit, or you’re in an area that has nature deficiency.

A toto všetko berú do úvahy mnohé rôzne strany. Bolo celkom zaujímavé, kto začal túto mapu používať. Spočiatku, viete, NatureQuant si myslel, že sa to bude primárne používať na veci, ako sú samosprávy, ako je rozhodovanie o tom, kde by sa mali uskutočniť zásahy do prírody, a snažiť sa nájsť rovnocennejší spôsob distribúcie týchto zdrojov, viete, skôr ako len distribúciu, viete, viac zelene v oblastiach, ktoré sú najhlučnejšie, čo má tendenciu byť aj tými bohatšími štvrťami, pretože majú viac času na to, aby sa mohli sťažovať na veci, a skutočne šíria tieto zdroje niektorým zo socioekonomicky častejšie zvýhodnené štvrte a tiež oblasti s nedostatkom prírody. A to je stále jeden z prípadov použitia. Čo je však podľa mňa zaujímavé, je, že to začínajú využívať aj poisťovne, zdravotné poisťovne. Takže ak sa pozriete na to, viete, ak žijete v oblasti bohatej na prírodu, vieme, že v skutočnosti budete mať menej zdravotných problémov. Takže niektoré z inovatívnejších zdravotných poisťovní, na ktoré sa pozerajú, môžeme skutočne pomôcť ľuďom, ktorí žijú v oblastiach bohatých na prírodu, môžu skutočne platiť nižšie poistné? Čo je skutočne zaujímavý spôsob, ako ďalej stimulovať investície do prírody v niektorých z týchto nižších sociálno-ekonomických, zvýhodnených a znevýhodnených štvrtí, či môžeme tieto veci tiež zrovnoprávniť? Investícia do suseda do ekologizácie susedstva znamená aj platiť menej za poistenie. Počul som príbehy o tom, ako to používajú policajní náčelníci, ktorí sa snažia pochopiť prepojenia medzi prírodou v ich mestách a kriminalitou v ich mestách, čo sú naozaj zaujímavé prepojenia a nie kauzality, ale korelácie, ktoré tam nájdete tiež. A potom vidíme veľké vládne inštitúcie, ako je administratíva Bieleho domu, ale aj veľké, veľké neziskové organizácie, ako napríklad nadácia Arbor Day, o ktorej viete, že je jednou z najväčších organizácií na pestovanie stromov na svete, v skutočnosti používajú mapu prírodného štvorca na rozhodovanie kde by mali sadiť a robiť tieto ekologizačné zásahy. Pretože z výskumu vieme, že je oveľa lepšie, ak vysadíte jeden strom na ulici, ktorá nemá žiadny, ako vysadíte ďalší strom na ulici, ktorá už má kopu. Z tohto jedinečného stromu získate oveľa viac výhod, či už súvisiacich s klímou alebo zdravím a wellness. Takže si myslím, že je to naozaj zaujímavý prípad použitia. Ale čo je najdôležitejšie, je to pohľad na prírodu z inej perspektívy. Pozerá sa na prírodu čisto z toho, aké sú prírodné prvky, ktoré podporujú zdravie a na základe týchto informácií rozhodujú o našich politických rozhodnutiach?

[00:35:14] Jackie De Burca: Áno, to je obrovské. Je zrejmé, že ak to niektoré poisťovne berú do úvahy, je to obrovské.

Niečo iné, čo na mňa naozaj zapôsobilo, bolo, že aj jazerá nás dokázali udržať pri živote dlhšie. Považujem to za celkom úžasné, rovnako ako aplikáciu na predpis. Kto to vlastne vytvoril a čo to robí?

[00:35:37] Dr. Nadina Galle: Áno, Nature Dose je aplikácia na predpis prírody, ktorá bola postavená na vrchole Nature Score. A v podstate to funguje tak, že je to aplikácia, ktorá funguje na pozadí vášho telefónu. Nie je to teda aplikácia, ktorá je navrhnutá tak, aby vás prilepila na obrazovku. Funguje na pozadí vášho telefónu podobne ako krokomer alebo Fitbit alebo počítadlo krokov na vašom telefóne. A v podstate to, čo robí, je použitie vašej polohy GPS na mape Nature Score, v podstate sa agreguje, takže neuchováva vaše údaje o polohe, ale v podstate denne agreguje, koľko minút ste boli vnútri, koľko minút ste boli vonku a koľko minút ste boli vystavení prírode týchto minút vonku.

A to, čo to v podstate robí, je, že vám to poskytne postrčenie, dúfajme, že budete viac vonku, podobne ako Fitbit, aby vám pomohol dosiahnuť cieľ 10,000 XNUMX krokov denne.

Nature Dose, najlepší výskum, aký máme, ukazuje, že potrebujeme minimálne 120 minút, dve hodiny vystavené prírode každý jeden týždeň. Takže to je v priemere 17, 20 minút denne, čo vás dostane na úplné minimum, čo vás núti ísť von vystavený prírode aspoň na 20 minút denne. Takže samozrejme má prírodnú štvorcovú mapu, ktorá je veľmi zrnitá, je schopná ukázať, viete, máte rád, dostanete plný bod za to, že ste uprostred lesa, získate pol bodu za to, že ste na ulica lemovaná stromami. A ak stojíte uprostred parkoviska, získate nula bodov. A to je rozdiel medzi časom vonku a časom vystaveným prírode.

And to your point, Jackie, beaches and lakes also get high points because we know from research that those things are very health supporting as well. And then the question becomes, okay, well, you know, how can we use this app? How can we integrate this? I think for some people it’s going to feel a little bit shocking that we now need an app to tell us to go outside. And I would say for the people where that feels shocking to, maybe you don’t need it, right? Maybe that’s something that’s so integral into your daily habits that you don’t need something like Nature Dose. But I would argue there’s a vast majority of people who do need that nudge to go outside, much like they need the nudge to take 10,000 steps a day. The importance of Nature Dose is it’s not just about how many steps you take every day. It’s also about where you take those steps a day. And this is a nudge to hopefully take those steps in a nature area so that we can really benefit from all the beautiful advantages that nature offers us. But I also see potential use cases here. For example, like a collaboration, for example, with your mental health practitioner. I talk about a case study in the book where they actually you are using Nature Dose as a warning sign, typically for those that are underage teenagers that are dealing with severe depression and severe mental illness as a warning sign that that information that they haven’t been outside in X amount of days is actually being sent to their mental health practitioner to know that they have to do extra checkup and welfare checks on those individuals, which, yes, can feel big brother to some. But we’re talking about underage teenagers dealing with severe mental health illness. We want to make sure that they’re getting the help that they deserve. Another use case is actually for big corporate partners. Right? In this age of working remotely and working in kind of this hybrid fashion, can we actually encourage employees to get outside, taking walking meetings, getting outside during their lunch break in places of nature? Because we know those employees are going to be more productive, take less sick days, and have less signs of burnout. So I think we’re only at the cusp of understanding how we might potentially be able to use this. I think there’s a lot of interesting use cases. And ultimately, I think my biggest hope, and I talk about it also in the epilogue of the book, is that apps like this will probably become obsolete one day. In fact, I hope that they do because we’ll have created.

Vytvoríme mestské prostredie a mestské prostredie, ktoré je také bohaté na prírodu, že nemusíme dvakrát premýšľať o tom, či urobíme našich 10,000 20 krokov denne alebo XNUMX minút alebo hodinu prírody denne, pretože sa to stane zakorenené v našich každodenných návykoch a v tom, ako sa pohybujeme v každodennom živote.

[00:39:56] Jackie De Burca: Áno, opäť spúšťaš moju predstavivosť, pretože som v tomto zmysle na rovnakej vlne ako ty, pretože mám vizuálnu predstavu, že nie príliš ďaleko, ty viete, mestské oblasti, o ktorých hovoríme, budú veľmi, veľmi bujné. A ja premýšľam a dúfam, že ľudia žijúci v týchto oblastiach v nie príliš vzdialenej budúcnosti sa obzrú späť do histórie a povedia si, ó, môj bože, ako ľudia predtým žili v tých betónových džungliach?

[00:40:26] Dr Nadina Galle: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think the thing that’s interesting with cities is that I think people are very quick to look back on how cities used to be and be very negative about how they used to be. But the fact is that cities are such a successful social experiment, They’ve continuously adapted and molded to what the needs and the wishes were of the urban population at that time. Right when the first combined sewer systems were integrated, you know, it was a hallelujah because cities were dealing with open sewers in the canals, with cholera outbreaks. You know, it was, it was, it was dirty and stinky and awful. And combined sewer systems provided, you know, massive improvement to that. Now we’re looking 100 years on, we’re looking at those systems and being like, in times of extreme rainfall, those can be really, really bad because we can lead to combined sewer overflo flows, which is, you know, having terrible impacts on our water quality and our own public health and safety. Okay. So we’re looking at ways that we can adopt more green infrastructure and more kind of sponge city tactics to be able to absorb much of that rainwater so that the combined sewer system in areas where, you know, it cannot be separated because it’s too expensive and too difficult. You know, we’re able to actually absorb a lot of that rainwater so that the combined sewer system is under. Is under less duress in those areas. I think we have to continuously look at how can we adapt and change to the needs of the urban population in 2024. You know, there was a time with the rise of the car that it was seen as a celebration to have highways smack dab through the middle of our cities. We think differently now. We’re seeing, you know, we’re having some critical conversations about whether it makes sense to designate so much space to roadways and parking spots. Why would we have them on the ground level? Why can’t we put them underground? Why can’t we do things like car sharing to reduce the pressure of on the land and instead use that area for public space and ideally green those spaces. So we’re constantly looking at changing, you know, the needs and the wants of our urban population. And indeed, to your point, Jackie, I think we’re going to look back and say, how do we ever live in those concrete jungles? And we’re going to look forward to the future and see hopefully a very optimistic nature, rich urban environment that is so beneficial to every single aspect of human life and all the other species that we share our cities with.

[00:42:54] Jackie De Burca: Absolútne, absolútne. Takže vy aj ja to tak cítime, čo je skvelé. Ale bohužiaľ, existuje veľa ľudí, najmä mladších ľudí, ktorých poznáme, viete, osobne a. A len čisto vďaka práci, ktorú robíte vy a ja, ktorým skutočne chýba optimizmus do budúcnosti kvôli, povedzme, klimatickým zmenám a biodiverzita stratu. A svet, aký je práve teraz, je niečo, čo je dnes veľkou témou, pretože títo ľudia sú našimi budúcimi generáciami a sú v tejto situácii. Väčšie percento z nich sa napríklad možno, možno pokúša o samovraždu. A ako ste spomenuli o dávke prírody, samozrejme, v živote mladého človeka je táto aplikácia veľmi dôležitá, pretože prinajmenšom ten, kto si lieči depresiu alebo akúkoľvek poruchu, s ktorou má čo do činenia, bude skutočne vidieť. No pozri, vieš, nešiel si von do prírody na päť dní alebo tak. Je to obrovská téma. Gina, aké sú tvoje myšlienky?

[00:43:55] Dr Nadina Galle: Yeah, I think I try to very much operate from the philosophy that when we look at the world, and specifically at our cities through the lens of nature, we operate from the perspective of abundance and of creation and of hope and of optimism. And I think that’s something that natural areas provide. They provide that area for respite, to restore our minds, to find ease and to hopefully find relief from some of the pain that we’re feeling. And that’s something that I believe is so critical, especially in this age of climate anxiety and doom and gloom, to continue looking at our world through the lens of nature and creating more nature, creating more spaces for nature, for us to interact with nature, for connections with nature. Because I do believe that impacts every single aspect of our lives, that of our parents, our grandparents, of our children, and. And for those of you that are feeling like, okay, sure, easy to say, but what am I supposed to do in my apartment on the sixth floor? I only have a balcony. I would say one that balcony is still. Even if it’s only a windowsill, you never know who’s looking up at that balcony. Greening that balcony is already providing you with a ton of benefits and also any passersbys. But I would also invite you to look critically at. Where do you spend the majority of your time. I bet you it’s probably not in that apartment. It might be on the road that you commute. It might be at your office space. It might be at your corporate campus, your university campus, your child’s School, your place of faith, your church. These are all areas and cities that actually tend to be on private ground that we actually have a lot of control over what we can do to change the face of these landscapes. And I would encourage you to get involved with that. Take stock of what’s around you, especially within that 500 meter radius of your house. Think local and act locally as well, because that is ultimately, if everybody did that within a 500 meter radius of their own home, our cities would look like a very different place.

[00:46:03] Jackie De Burca: Naozaj by. Teraz by som chcel skončiť tým, že som vás požiadal o nejaké posledné slová rady, ale myslím, že ste to takmer práve urobili sami. Ale existujú nejaké iné, viete, malé drahokamy, ktoré by ste chceli ponúknuť na dokončenie?

[00:46:17] Dr Nadina Galle: Štvordielna séria, možno menej rád a viac malej výzvy. Tak som to urobil, povedal som vám, aby ste urobili inventúru toho, čo je v okruhu 500 metrov, ale možno konkrétne by som pozval všetkých poslucháčov, aby identifikovali aspoň 10 druhov flóry alebo fauny v okruhu 500 metrov od ich domova. A ak chcete, môžete použiť jednu z týchto aplikácií, o ktorých sme hovorili, Earth Snap, PlantSnap, iNaturalist, a zapojiť človeka. City Nature Challenge, ak áno, je to zvyčajne koncom apríla, začiatkom mája, čo je fantastický spôsob, pretože potom nielen identifikujete tieto druhy a zhodnotíte, čo je okolo vás, ale môžete sa stretnúť aj s inými ľuďmi. ktorých to tiež zaujíma. A boli by ste prekvapení, ako často, keby som prestal fotografovať, viete, nejaký krásny kvet listu stromu, alebo, viete, pokúšať sa zahliadnuť nejakého motýľa na mojom fotoaparáte. Boli by ste prekvapení, aký je to ľadoborec, ako rýchlo si to ľudia všimnú a pýtajú sa na to. Vieš, čo robíš alebo na čo sa pozeráš? Viete, je to taký krásny ľadoborec a táto krásna príležitosť na sociálne spojenie, ktoré si myslím, že v dnešnom svete, najmä v našich mestách, zúfalo potrebujeme.

[00:47:39] Jackie De Burca: To je úplne správna a úžasná rada, Nadina. Bolo mi potešením viesť naše rôzne rozhovory. A viete, myslím si, že všetko, čo ste povedali, bude pre poslucháčov veľmi užitočné a ja som si naše spoločné zábery poriadne užil.

[00:47:57] Dr Nadina Galle: Ja naozaj tiež. Jackie, veľmi pekne ďakujem poslucháčom, že počúvajú, a tebe, Jackie, že chceš venovať toľko času týmto naozaj, naozaj dôležitým témam. Dúfam, že vaši poslucháči našli veľa.

[00:48:09] Jackie De Burca: Má to hodnotu a verím, že budú. Nadina, ďakujem veľmi pekne.