S3、E22：空腔牆絕緣：空腔提取的 Damian Mercer 的隱藏危機

數位產生的成績單（可能包含一些錯誤）

[00:00:03] Steve Randall：您好，歡迎來到建設性聲音。我是史蒂夫·蘭德爾。在本集中，我們討論的是空心牆保溫材料。現在，它可能不是什麼性感的東西，它可能不是你最近想到的東西，但很多領域和很多財產都存在問題，事實上它可能是全國性的醜聞。讓我們從嘉賓那裡了解更多。

[00:00:32] 達米安‧默瑟：嗨，我叫達米安‧默瑟。我是 Cavity Extraction Ltd 的所有者和董事。

[00:00:39] 史蒂夫·蘭德爾：太棒了。好吧，歡迎來到建設性聲音，達米安。我相信我們大多數觀眾都非常了解空心牆保溫，但只是給我們一個簡單的概述，它是什麼？

[00:00:48] Damian Mercer: Cavity wall insulation is the insulating off a property to reduce your carbon footprint. The retrofit side of cavity wall insulation is where it’s pumped in after the building has been built. When you’re getting a new build and they’re insulated, they are built in situ so that there’s usually a gap between the insulation and with a retrofit, it is a full fill cavity system.

[00:01:19] Steve Randall：今天我們特別討論的是空心牆隔熱層失效的影響。

這種情況有多常見？

[00:01:31] Damian Mercer: Cavity wall insulation is failing at an alarming rate to me. You know, my business has been going 10 years and we’ve seen it grow year on year since it started. We extract from private and commercial situations like housing associations and people like that. And we’re at first, 10 years ago, we were doing a couple of extractions a week. We are rattling through between 10 and 15 extractions a week now. Cavity insulation and the numbers obviously have increased because there was a government incentive of making sure that the properties in the UK met a minimum standard with their EPCs. So there was a big drive on retrofitting insulation.

而且，我認為根據最新統計，英國大陸有 14 到 XNUMX 萬處房產安裝了空心牆隔熱材料。

[00:02:34] Steve Randall：所以我們談論的是大數字。當出現問題時，會對財務、環境和健康產生影響。我的意思是，所有這些事情都會受到影響。那麼會發生什麼事呢？

[00:02:44] Damian Mercer：通常情況下，您會注意到某些牆壁上出現黴菌或潮濕，特別是在冬季，當您試圖將房屋內的溫度保持在 19 度時，外面是負二分。負二度到 19 度之間的某個位置為零。這就是露點。如果您的空腔壁隔熱失敗，那麼它要么會在空腔內的材料上失敗，要么會在改裝後安裝的空腔本身內出現冷點。然後，當露點形成時，它會弄濕絕緣材料。絕緣層反過來又變濕，它弄濕了內部或增加了房屋內部圍護結構的濕度值，這導致了潮濕的滋生地，然後反過來發黴，然後對健康產生影響，從哮喘、皮膚病到慢性阻塞性肺病的增加等等。

[00:03:51] Steve Randall：您認為空心牆保溫失敗的問題是否經常被誤診，尤其是房東？如果他們不帶人進來，他們可能會假設這裡或那裡的抽油扇可能會修復它，或者雙層玻璃上的密封件可能已經消失了，如果他們只是解決了這個問題，這將是一個修復，實際上這是他們需要考慮的更嚴重的事情。

[00:04:11] Damian Mercer：是的，我們去過很多地方，你知道，有人說過，哦，這將是你的抽油煙機，或者你沒有抽油煙機，或者你沒有打開窗戶或者通風不足。 當然，作為政府，我們應該調查隔熱改造的過程，特別是空腔隔熱，以及該產品會對英國的房屋存量產生什麼影響？ 現在，我們往往會發現，當人們誤診時（他們一直這樣做），防潮人員會說，哦，你的濕氣越來越重，我們會進來，我們會一路砍掉 900 高你房子的底部，我們會給你注射化學物質，然後重新粉刷它。 這就像在問題上貼膏藥一樣。 真正的原因是你必須尋找因果關係，它可能是任何事情，從帶輪垃圾箱放置在錯誤的位置，錯誤安裝空心牆隔熱材料，到房產外部的維護問題（如果你處於高暴露區域）。 但空心牆保溫材料面臨的真正問題是，它被安裝在錯誤類型的住房中的錯誤地理位置。 我們發現我們總是被要求出去對該房產進行補救工作。 現在，就成本而言，你知道，如果你要提取一處房產，它可能是某處，你知道，一棟1940 年代的半獨立式住宅，例如，面積可能約為105 平方米、110 平方米，可以是2,500 平方米之間的任何地方該房產的價格為 3,500 英鎊。 取決於絕緣類型。 因此它可以是纖維、玻璃纖維或聚苯乙烯珠。 有不同類型的泡沫。 最近媒體上很流行 SSB 法律聲稱他們使用了聚氨酯泡沫，這是一種在空腔內脫落的硬泡沫。 真正移除它的唯一方法是降低前立面。 然後是25年以上的真正舊的，你會遇到一種叫做尿素甲醛的東西，它是一種白色泡沫，更容易去除，因為當你把空氣和鞭子放進去時，它實際上會分解。 只要您有一個良好的接入點，也可以用吸塵器將其移除，那就非常簡單了。 但是，你知道，空心牆保溫存在一個問題。 我認為這取決於房屋存量，但也取決於政府減少碳足跡的政策。 一些公司更感興趣的是他們可以從你的房子裡收集多少碳，而不是減少你的暖氣費用。 反過來，如果產品不對，你的成本就會更高，因為你的房子外面會出現濕的信封。 當信封潮濕時，加熱就更困難。 這就像我們去海灘游泳一樣。 一旦你進入了大海，你就會回來。 在你身上蓋上濕毯是沒有意義的，因為你永遠不會暖和起來。 當你在你周圍放一條乾毯子或乾毛巾時，你就會暖和起來。 而且是一樣的，完全一樣的過程。 如果你的房子周圍有濕腔隔熱材料，你要做的第一件事就是先加熱那些潮濕的牆壁或有濕腔隔熱材料，然後你就會感受到嘗試加熱它的好處。 但是，一旦晚上暖氣停止，熱量開始快速從你的房子裡排出，你會立即註意到你遇到了問題。 你知道嗎，沒有隔熱層的乾燥房屋實際上比那些牆體隔熱層失效的房屋性能更好。

[00:08:28] Steve Randall: Now, we’ve seen situations change with materials that are used. So the one that always comes up is asbestos. You know, we wouldn’t use that these days. I know some countries still do. And then there are situations like the rack scandal, which of course affected many, many buildings, schools, hospitals, and that became a big national scandal. Are we talking about this in terms of just the wrong materials used at the time or with hindsight there were the wrong materials or are we in scandal territory with this, do you think?

[00:08:59] Damian Mercer：我個人的感覺是兩者兼具。我認為，當各國政府在 1992 年簽署最初的京都協議（即旨在減少碳足跡的協議）時，我認為整個想法就是我們將如何做到這一點。因為我們已經簽署了協議，所以可能會有一點恐慌，因為為了減少碳足跡，能源公司承擔了這項責任。他們將如何做？好吧，讓我們使用空心牆隔熱材料。讓我們在那個空隙中隔離。這是正確的事情還是錯誤的事情？我認為在某些情況下，空心牆隔熱材料可以成為您財產的絕對資產。但如果您位於暴露區 4，即坎布里亞郡、蘭開夏郡海岸的大部分地區、威爾士海岸下降或該國西側的任何地方，您就處於風雨的危險區域。風驅動雨和改造。空心牆保溫並沒有真正齊頭並進，我認為很多公司都忽略了這一點。他們更感興趣的是收集碳而不是隔離這些特性。那你知道解決方案是什麼嗎？解決方法就是把它拿出來重新思考改造一下。

世界需要以個人為基礎而不是以郵遞區號的標準來看待房屋。近年來，我們已經開始沿著這條路走下去。他們採用了安裝更好產品的新方法，現在監管也更好了。但先前擔保公司並未對這些安裝進行監管。這些以安裝商身份成立的公司現在已經消失了，你知道，他們消失只是因為他們減少了責任。這是醜聞嗎？我認為現在是因為在過去的十年裡，我們告訴人們空腔隔熱失敗及其存在的問題，你知道，一開始它是大便。你知道，人們並沒有真正做到。好吧，我們不相信現在他們能夠看到實際的、由此引起的問題。您知道，住房協會正在移除該產品，並尋找更好的產品來減少碳足跡。請記住，住房協會物業希望獲得 C 級或更高的 EPC 評級。他們是如何做到這一點的，他們正在尋找一種方法來提高客戶住房的舒適度，同時也改善住房庫存，他們可能會考慮外牆保溫。

All these type of retrofits can be Good in certain situations. But when they were not policed like they were previously, there’s problems. I was down in Westminster just Recently speaking to MPs about fail cavity wall insulation and we sort of, when they were asking me sort of the scales of this, if we’re looking at 14 and a half million, which I think it’s actually more, I think it’s probably close to 15 and a half million now, if that is that figure. And then there was a independent study carried out by the BBA CIT over in Northern Ireland where they investigated the housing stock of Northern Ireland. And that report was an independent body that looked at it and they came up with a figure of 75% of the housing stock in Northern Ireland was either failing, failed or incorrectly installed. Wow. So those three bodies, if you transferred that over to the uk, which there is a correlation between the type of housing stock in Northern Ireland and what we have over here, 75% of 14 and a half million quid is an awful lot of homes. The scandal part of it is when they go to the guarantee company to say we have fail cavity wall insulation, they are left really high and dry because, you know, a company might come out and say, have you had your windows changed? Yes, I’ve had my windows changed because they were looking a bit dilapidated and you know, we’ve done some maintenance. Well, you’ve disturbed the insulation so your guarantees null and void. But then in the same terms and conditions further down the page, it says if you do not maintain your property, you will also void your.

[00:14:04] Steve Randall：是的，你知道，他們無論如何都會抓住你。

[00:14:06] Damian Mercer：是的，不管怎樣他們都會抓住你。所以這張紙，它所寫的紙不值得，這些公司應該受到監管，但他們實際上是在監管自己。

[00:14:18] 史蒂夫·蘭德爾：達米安，我認為這裡的問題是，你知道，我們正在討論這一具體問題，但我們知道將會有各種關於減少碳足跡和其他環境問題。政府和政策制定者傾向於採取的工作方式是，他們需要能夠將其推銷給公眾和必須做這項工作的人。因此，他們尋找可以大規模實施的解決方案。無論它們是否合適，都可以大規模實施以保持較低的成本。所以這是一個領域，很可能還會有其他類似的事情透過政策引入。它們之所以到位，是因為它是一種可擴展的解決方案，即使它不是正確的解決方案。因此，我認為與政府一起進行遊說工作非常重要。你知道，他們說什麼？他們有沒有給你任何想法，是的，好吧，我們接受這種情況，我們要這樣做，那樣做，還是他們什麼也沒說？

[00:15:21] Damian Mercer：他們實際上什麼也沒說。每次我們將空腔隔熱帶到最前沿時，並沒有幫助。你知道，有些議員在下議院進行了辯論，你知道，我們向他們提供了信息，我們與他們達成了共識，然後突然之間就會舉行大選或你知道，Rishi Sunak，在我上次演講兩週後，他召集了一場大選，與捲入SSB 法律醜聞的許多人談論了空腔隔熱失敗的問題。那些出席的議員，其中三分之二已經不存在了。所以我們基本上又回到原點了。他們都簽署了減少碳足跡的協議。他們都坐在那裡推動它，但他們實際上並沒有考慮空心牆隔熱可能出現的問題的副作用。你知道，六、七年前我參加了 Jeremy vine 的節目，他對我說，達米安，你的生意不應該存在。確切地。

如果做得正確、安裝正確、維護正確、監管正確，我的生意就不會存在。

[00:16:38] 史蒂夫·蘭德爾：是的，絕對是。你已經強調了問題的嚴重性。再說一遍，與政府和政策制定者一起，他們喜歡談論性感的東西。所以對某些人來說，談論 減少碳足跡 is sexy. People who care about the environment, care about the planet. That’s the sort of language they want to hear. What they don’t want to hear about is cavity wall insulation, because that’s less sexy. So that is part of the problem as well, that politics, particularly these days, is all about talking about those things that you think the electorate want to hear about and not talking about maybe some uncomfortable truths.

[00:17:14] Damian Mercer: And I totally agree with you about, you know, when they talk about the sexy stuff, you know, they like to be seen, we are reducing your fuel costs by insulating your properties. What they seem to forget is the people that they are insulating housing to, like people are in fuel poverty, they can’t afford to maintain those properties. So, you know, if they get a little bit extra money in their pocket because their bills at the beginning have been reduced, they’re going to spend that on things that they need that they’ve been missing out on. Previously that money will be re spent. They’re not going to put that money into a bank account and go oh and five years time we’ll have to repoint that wall. That money doesn’t go, it doesn’t work like that in the real world. And when the maintenance of the property then starts to fail, you then have the problems of the ingress failing the insulation. And we start, we enter this a never ending circle of chasing your tail again. Cavity insulation, when it goes wrong, it goes wrong and there is a cost implication, a cost implication that actually outweighs the saving situation. So when we are looking at fuel poverty or let’s go and insulate everybody’s house, it’s not really the right way forward. I think, you know, there are, it needs to be looked at differently. And I’m all in favor of insulating houses and ventilating houses because insulation and ventilation should go hand in hand. But it needs to be looked at on its individual basis and postcodes or streets. One street end of the street can be higher than another end of the street might be in a valley. So you’ve got high exposure at the top at one end and sheltered at the other. You know when they say oh we’ll go and insulate that street there. It’s not always the case. You know, you need to look on an individual basis. These people need to be policed. Some government departments where when you insulate a property, your house should have a change of planning on that particular property. If you don’t inform building control that you have changed the fabric of your building, you are against building and planning law. But the people that were meant to inform the local planning authority that they have changed the fabric of the building was the guarantee companies. And if the guarantee companies haven’t done that within 24 hours, they are actually committing a criminal offense. So our housing stock needs to be looked at at what we’ve done previously and what we’re looking at now. And yes, when we look at it now it’s a lot better because we are trying to put things in place that didn’t exist when we first started that down these energy schemes 20 odd years ago. Plus you know, we are actually, there are retrofit coordinators, retrofit designers who are looking at those houses now. But we still have, haven’t changed some of the methodologies for these installations and these types of products. And we are, I think we are restocking the shelves for me to clear in years to come.

[00:20:53] Steve Randall：我要感謝腔體提取公司的 Damien Mercer。您可以在節目筆記中找到有關如何联系達米安及其業務的詳細信息，這就是本集建設性聲音的全部內容。請花點時間與其他可能覺得有趣的人分享。關注或訂閱即可自動獲取您最喜愛的節目的最新劇集 播客 app and rate and review the podcast if you can. You can also listen to the latest episode by saying Alexa Play Constructive Voices podcast.

[00:21:20] 達米安‧默瑟：這裡有建設性的聲音。這是最新一集。

[00:21:23] Steve Randall：在我們的網站上，也有更多信息，那就是 constructive voices.com，下次之前不要忘記破折號。感謝您的聆聽。你確實在幫助我們建立一些東西。