Building Smarter, Faster & Greener – Optimised Construction with Will Frost of Saint-Gobain S4, E13

Jackie De Burca:

This is Jackie De Burca at Constructive Voices bringing you a very interesting episode where I’m speaking with Will Frost, who’s the head of public sector for Off Site solutions at Saint Gobain and he’s going to talk about how optimised construction methods, particularly panelised and off site solutions, can help tackle the UK’s housing crisis.

Now, with the government target of one and a half million new homes in five years, we explore what’s standing in the way and how innovation can help bridge this gap.

Will will share how solutions like EnveoVent are already making a difference by speeding up build times, reducing carbon and supporting the upskill of traditional trades. It’s really a fascinating chat and we’re going to also look at how collaboration, smarter procurement and embracing new approaches can lead to better, faster and more sustainable homes.

Now you’re going to be talking to us about all sorts of very, very hot and important topics. But the first thing really Will, is could you start telling us just a little bit about your role at your company?

Will Frost: Yeah. so I work for Saint Gobain offsite solutions in the uk primarily focusing on the public sector.

by title, I’m the head of public sector for offsite solutions, and we focus on the public sectors. Demand for housing, providing solutions. Through a combination of, multiple brands within San Kaban to what the customer needs.

Jackie De Burca: Okay. So I mean, that sounds absolutely huge to a normal person.

how does your job connect [00:01:00] with like the wider house building landscape, M-M-M-S-C in the uk? Well,

Will Frost: okay, so, modern methods of construction, MMC is, is a unique terminology because the, the use of panelized solutions, Seems to be a lot more successful in the MMC industry. So for those who don’t know what MMC is, it’s, it’s got seven categories.

So from category one right through to category seven, category one being volumetric, so completely offsite, manufactured and dropped in onto the site. Whereas category two is more your panelized 3D type solutions. which is a slightly more flexible approach, and as we’ve seen in the UK climate, category one has not had a very successful history and seems to be struggling quite some when it comes to meeting housing requirements and delivering on them.

So we find [00:02:00] ourselves really looking at what we can offer from a 3D panelized solution. And, what uniquely places us in that is that we actually offer three types of solutions. So not just on your timber frame. We do like gauge steel and large format masonry, which is a product made from Rete, which is another form of lightweight construction.

Jackie De Burca: So for those who don’t know, what exactly is Air Creek?

Will Frost: So, air CRE is, just narrated concrete block, which is obviously, and one method of, Standard block type building. Air Creek is a lighter version of that, also has a lower embodied carbon element to it.

it’s lightweight, so it’s much lighter than traditional methods, but they also offer a floor to wall, floor to ceiling solution. So you get panels in 2.4 or three meters. it’s very much a panelized solution now.

Jackie De Burca: Okay, so for our listeners who are around the world, we’re talking particularly about the [00:03:00] UK today and the government have a target of one and a half million homes over the next five years.

From your perspective, will, what’s the biggest barrier to meeting this target?

Will Frost: I don’t think there’s one single barrier. I think it’s a combination of things.

Jackie De Burca: Mm-hmm.

Will Frost: From the way in which they process and, manage the release of funding for that sector. One of them.

the other one could be The regulations and some of the clarity that’s needed around, some of the regulations and also local authorities just coming together and working with housing associations a bit closer. I think that, Probably one of the biggest barriers is the lack of understanding of modern methods of construction, or in this case, category two specifically.

really trying to understand how they measure up versus traditional and actually really seeing the benefits and clearly being able to identify what those benefits are, and putting a managed value to it so they can really compare, like for [00:04:00] like.

Jackie De Burca: So how can that be resolved Will, do you think?

Will Frost: Well, I think it’s up to the procurement, and supply partners.

So in our case, we spent a lot of effort and energy in opening up discussions and having round tables with those involved in the sector and engaging with them on a level to understand what they’re lacking in knowledge so that we can educate, and facilitate the platform for them to go and get that knowledge.

And understanding. more often than not, it’s easier to do it with a project they might be facing so we can actually show them the benefits as we’re going through right on as early as design phase right through, so that they can really embrace the full effect of a category two solution.

Jackie De Burca: So talking about the category two solution will have you any examples of that that you could tell the audience about?

Will Frost: we launched Envy event, this year, which is a complete through wall solution. So that is [00:05:00] really right through the full wrap of the panel, the building, and the interior lining as well.

we did a Pilot project in Birmingham, where we delivered 12 units and tested the limits of what you do on a construction site. So this was particularly challenging ’cause it was really tiny site and had quite some challenges with elevations. we could quite easily navigate around with our panelized solutions so we could essentially cranium the solutions, deliver.

Two units, within seven days ’cause they were attached units. So that sped the process up quite well. But then also having the full, control of the supply chain from a one single source really helped with delivering to the timeline that was allowed. and in the construction industry, you know, when we’ve got weather, we’ve got weather and that really plays a part on things.

Jackie De Burca: yeah,

Will Frost: having these solutions, really do actually. Claw back a lot of the time, but can be adjustable enough to mitigate some of the [00:06:00] impact.

Jackie De Burca: Okay. I mean, another part of, there are so many, interesting challenges at the moment. Another one of those is the skills and labor shortages that obviously been faced and they’re very well documented and you know, pretty serious.

How do you see MMC helping to bridge that gap? Will.

Will Frost: Well, it’s actually quite a sad one that we using all those skilled laborers and, artists really in what they’re able to do with their hands. And what we’ve been doing is really trying to get out there and educate and train them to sort of, I don’t wanna say upskill,

but essentially we’re equipping them and empowering them to. Adopt a modern method of construction within their businesses so that they can apply the same methodology but not have as much pressure on the workforce side of things. So you can essentially have a smaller, gang of workers per unit or per project.

So, you know, we can really assist with bridging the [00:07:00] gap between the skills, essentially in my opinion. Skilled laborers on the sites, understand construction, understand the kind of build that they’re doing. and to lose that would be a pity. So if we could help educate them and train them to a level where they could adopt MMC methods, then that’s one way of doing it.

Jackie De Burca: Sure. I mean, it’s no different in a way than a person who works on a computer or like I do in a production scenario. You know, we all have to upskill as technology evolves, don’t we?

Will Frost: yes.

Jackie De Burca: it doesn’t really matter what walk of life unless you’re, you know, say just interfacing with the public in a shop or something.

But, you know, generally speaking, it comes to most of us these days because things are moving and evolving so quickly, aren’t they?

Will Frost: Absolutely. and in the case with, modern Methods of Construction, I actually prefer not to call them modern methods of construction, but rather optimized, construction.

Because if you are, like you were saying earlier, we all have to upskill at some point because [00:08:00] technology’s moving and everything else around us is at a much faster pace, especially since the world and the edge of digital. You know, we need to apply the same sort of pace into the industry and, the best way to do that is to optimize right from your procurement partners all the way through to the end.

from a manufacturing point of view, how can your manufacturers optimize their production better? So we can reduce waste so we can reduce time, and work safer. ultimately, it is an interesting time because that is being forced on the market for too long. It’s been based on a traditional mindset, and now it’s changing.

Jackie De Burca: It is. obviously quite rapidly talking about, your upskilling of the traditional workforces, that would’ve been something that was at play in en VO vent as well, was it?

Will Frost: Yes, in indeed it was. there’s many benefits to these types of solutions and one of those is, not throwing someone in at the deep end.

the kind of skills [00:09:00] required is more of an advancement on their knowledge and current understanding of an install. it’s also taking away some of the risk and time factors around that. So in the case of envi event, being able to, after them a fabric, a shell, a super structure, so to speak.

With, weather tide capabilities provided all the ancillary, trades come along like windows and roof tilers, you can speed that process up dramatically and freeing up them more time to go and do more work.

Jackie De Burca: Okay. So just as a direct comparison, what would you say time-wise traditionally would be X amount of time and then with optimized construction as you refer to it, would be what amount of time?

Will Frost: So I’ve got a current example that I can share. a client of ours managed to identify that by utilizing a system like NB event, it can save up to six weeks on their standard build program. Which, if you work on your known labor rates out, there’s a [00:10:00] significant cost saving on labor time, but not necessarily losing the labor force, so to speak.

Jackie De Burca: Sure, yeah. No, no, that makes a lot of sense. What are some of the hurdles and opportunities when it comes to scaling in this method of house building?

Will Frost: the procurement’s actually quite interesting because as a member active, role within the procurement chain to the sector, we have to step up.

we have to really. Make sure that our customers and clients are getting the performance and the quality that they demand or require. from a procurement perspective, one of those hurdles really is quantifying the performance and the time to the actual budgets of the projects that they have.

initially, MMC or Modern Methods Construction, in my case, optimized construction upfront, has a higher cost. But that’s because. the fabrics are designed in such a way that they can reduce the running costs and the long-term maintenance of the building. so they [00:11:00] offset each other rarely.

but it’s that initial upfront, which we have to work with our customers a little bit better. and that’s what we do very well, is really trying to understand their needs and really look at what it is they’re trying to achieve so we can get them closest to that goal within budget. It’s a tough ask because, nothing’s staying the same, everything’s increasing.

There’s an economic uncertainty, at the time of all these, so people are working with very minimal budgets.

Jackie De Burca: Yeah, of course. that’s the situation that, the industry is in at the moment. there’s just so many huge changes aren’t there

Will Frost: there are, you know, the biggest challenge is the government wanting to produce 1.5 million homes, which is where we need to be, to really make an impact on the shortage, in the.

We call it a crisis in the UK for housing. the knock on effect of that is so dire. And the more you look into it, the more it becomes, of an importance to really get a solution or find some way of building so that we can deliver on time and one method of [00:12:00] construction offer all that.

but it’s just that lack of understanding of the benefits.

Jackie De Burca: Hmm. Okay. So yeah, it’s kinda like, as you said earlier on, it’s like educating, various of the stakeholders along the line and looking at the fact that, you know, right now in the UK there’s over a million people on the waiting list for social housing.

Will Frost: Yes. You know, 150 odd thousand children living in temporary accommodation. Yeah, that’s horrific. There wasn’t horrific big wake up call than that

Jackie De Burca: that’s it. No, it is, it’s just unbelievable. Particularly in somewhere like the uk, you know? Yes. Which is meant to be such an advanced society.

so what do you think are the biggest delivery challenges for social housing providers?

Will Frost: I can’t speak on behalf of housing associations directly, but, being in the procurement chain with them, we certainly understand their frustrations on the whole process of procurement and thankfully, the new procurement act is put in place to help them have more control over how their money is spent on behalf of the whole supply [00:13:00] chain.

and secondly, it really does, Put a bit of ownership on them to be more selective of the right solutions, the right type of, materials and products that they can utilize. and that’s the case. they need to take more control over what they’re trying to deliver.

Jackie De Burca: Okay. And obviously access to funding depends.

Will Frost: I’ll try to avoid that. But that is something that they do struggle with and

Jackie De Burca: Yeah.

Will Frost: more money’s being released to them and, you know, when you look at the funds being released to the amount of houses, there’s still a disconnect in trying to quantify and make that balance.

I think we calculated, in a round table discussion that to really hit that you’re looking at somewhere closer to the 5 billion pound mark. I understand that things have to be staged in and, and things like that, but if we’re gonna tackle the problem, with these million people on a waiting list and 159,000 children living in temporary accommodation, we need to be much more fast and [00:14:00] aggressive.

Jackie De Burca: Now looking ahead Will to Future Home standard, what kinds of design or material choices do you see as crucial for compliance, especially at scale?

Will Frost: So we have, An E home two project in Sulford University that was specifically designed and built in a chamber to test variances of how the house should perform and, what kind of elements we need to adjust and when we adjust them, how does the house perform?

it all starts for me with the fabric. So future home standards and fabric performance hasn’t changed. So it’s still at a 0.18 U value. And that’s what most will be building towards that minimum. But what we are hearing from our client base and certainly the market set, is they’re needing to have better performing fabric to complement the way in which they can heat houses.

And the reason they need the better, performing fabric is to maintain that and manage it better. you know, [00:15:00] it’s a case of, social housing sector. You can’t, you putting very advanced technology into a place to heat it and there might be someone who doesn’t understand that technology and it could end up costing them more to run.

So it really is about addressing your fabric. design for manufacturer would be the first and foremost. So engaging with a procurement manufacturer, partner at design stage so that we can factor in elements of performance for that building. As early on as possible, can mitigate quite a lot of the frustrations.

Jackie De Burca: Hmm, okay. So obviously, you know, looking at the effects on the environment is one, you know, one huge factor. The other is, you know, warmer, warmer houses that are cheaper to run are particularly important for people who are on lower incomes. how will does something like a complete external wall solution help make that a reality?

Will Frost: Well, envi event is unique in that it’s [00:16:00] come from a single source. It’s combined with multiple Sanka band products. It has been thoroughly tested. you know, we’ve carried out number of testings on this, right? From acoustics, fire resistance, impact testing. and that’s the thing.

So when you’re getting the fabric or the superstructure, it has and does meet. The criteria to last and accompany the goals of the client in terms of having something that’s going gonna assist with those issues they have with running costs and things like that.

Jackie De Burca: Okay. Now we can’t avoid net zero goals, in the world that we’re living in at the moment.

Net zero targets are, really pushing everybody in the sector to rethink how we are building. How do you feel house builders can reduce embodied carbon while still delivering at the necessary speed and volume?

Will Frost: Volume? Well, it’s natural to use. as many lower carbon bodied materials as possible.

We look at ND event, for [00:17:00] example. in terms of the embodied carbon with the timber frame is much lower than that of, traditional build. So, you know, that reduces it between, I believe it’s between up to 70%,

Reduction in that. so yeah, it is absolutely, Important that we find ways to deliver homes that are better for the planet. if we look at a future home standard, the target is reducing it, 75 to 80% reduction in carbon compared to homes built into 2013 for our as approved in Document L.

so in the event, for example, on the reduction of the embodied carbon emissions, approximately 20%. if you break it down into just the fabric first, and then there’s all the complimentary wraps and installation elements that can lower that even further.

Jackie De Burca: Okay. Now of course there is a fair bit of discussion around the sustainability [00:18:00] of timber. What’s your own view on moving away from Virgin Timber and what alternatives are you personally excited about?

Will Frost: It, it’s really interesting question because, you know, at this point in time, Virgin Timber is, is needed, just because of the.

The lack of availability of structural alternatives out there, but the modern advancement in, in wood fibers combined with plastics and things like that, seems to be gaining quite a bit of traction. So I’m quite excited to see some of the developments that have been made with, the use of bamboo, in the structural beam type setting.

’cause obviously, you know, it’s all good looking for alternative solutions and we need to, but they have to be able to perform and keep the inhabitants safe.

Jackie De Burca: Okay. So do you have any particular examples of bamboo use that you’ve encountered in your work?

Will Frost: I’ve seen it being utilized and [00:19:00] reconstituted into a really good high density structural beam, which is also a lightweight, I mean, it has

Jackie De Burca: amazing properties, doesn’t it?

Will Frost: It it, it does. And, and you know, my, my previous background being in timber, technology, we, we came across it quite a bit just because of its ability to grow faster and

To supply a variation of, of strengthening com, properties, but, but also it’s, it’s lower carbon is, is outstanding. so at this point, we haven’t seen any, use of the ba bamboo timber solutions in a construction way, purely because I think the costs aren’t gonna be there just yet. Mm-hmm. But it’s one to watch out for.

Jackie De Burca: definitely. Now going back to the likes of the local authorities, will housing associations who are considering what’s traditionally called MMC and you obviously call it optimize construction, what would be the one piece of advice you would offer to help them to take the next step?

Will Frost: I would say, [00:20:00] reach out to your procurement or partners, your supply chain and find out what sort of.

performance related testing, they can certify and guarantee on model methods of construction. these solutions like envi event are purposefully designed. To speed the process up on site to offer a very good, solid performing house, but also to complement its maintenance thereafter.

So, really get to understand the solutions that you are interested in venturing down and make sure that they are performing to a level that you’re expecting them to, and that they can be backed up.

Jackie De Burca: Hmm. Okay. The famous year that a few years ago seemed, way off in the distant future 2030, which is

Five years away. Right. Now, as we’re recording in 2025, what does success look like? In terms of house building, sustainability and social housing,

Will Frost: one, a massive reduction in the amount [00:21:00] of people waiting for homes. Mm-hmm. to a bit more of a commitment from local authorities and government to the use of, modern methods of construction and that becoming the norm.

You know? I think We are past the point of return for trying to save traditional, methods of build and we just really need to focus in on what is currently performing in the market and making sure that, come 2030 we’re hitting the targets. that’s the ultimate level of success, isn’t it?

You mean when you’re able to actually hit the target with quality and proper performing buildings, then that’s it.

Jackie De Burca: That’s it. That’s absolutely it. And hopefully, hopefully if we’re talking again in five years time, we we’ll be able to pat each other on the back and say that, well, that was actually achieved.

Is there anything else Will, that you feel you’d like to add? You know, to cover, that we haven’t covered during our talk, our talk today,

Will Frost: I, I’d just like to really stress on, solutions like India event. they, they’re [00:22:00] specifically designed and, you know, bans thrown a lot of resource into.

Putting things together to offer the market a good solution, a really viable solution that they can have confidence in. we’ve delivered it. We’ve tested it, we’ve backed it with, certification. from all angles. So, you know, it really is something to think about when you look at more methods.

Forget trying to understand and justify what the initial outlay is, but most importantly, the people that are gonna live in that house and it’s been built with an envy event. You’ve got a product solution there that is really going to do what it says.

Jackie De Burca: Okay. I mean, that’s obviously, the most important factor and the fact that, as you’ve said earlier on Will, we’re talking about timeframes that are entirely different, so that makes the reality of achieving these very challenging targets to be something that we could [00:23:00] maybe consider

Will Frost: Absolutely.

Jackie De Burca: Fantastic. it was brilliant to talk to you and I feel I learned really a lot today. Will, thank you very much for your time.

Will Frost: thank, thank you for having me.

Jackie De Burca: Thank you very much.